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At What Price Community?
evolving
catvalente
Two controversies have embroiled the small corners of my world of late.

One is the developing situation at Slacktivist, the other is on my very own Peaks Island. Both are about who gets to decide what a community is and how it evolves; both are bringing a lot of anger and hurts old and new to the surface. Both interest me because after writing, I view building community--the community here at my blog, on my Twitter, in my world of books and singing sirens and travels and dream-making, to be the thing I am Here For in a very real sense, and I have much still to learn. (That could not sound more pretentious, but it's true.)

And because, as it's been a week with LJ not getting me comment notifications (yes, I've checked my spam filter--I get 7-8 comments out of 50-100 on days I post) while rolling out something as insignificant, pathetically imitative, and useless to the bulk of their audience as a Farmville clone, I am finally considering leaving LJ after a decade of beloved dedication.

So here's what's going down.

Slacktivist is a site I've been frequenting for about two and a half years now. On it, a guy named Fred Clark writes about all kinds of things, but what he's known for is an epic, ongoing, meticulous, page by page takedown of the Left Behind series. Fred is a Christian, and his takedown involves showing in precise detail just how horribly LaHaye and Jenkins have betrayed what is good in that faith while promoting what is sociopathically evil. It is brilliant, insightful, heartbreaking, and has taught me worlds about grace, understanding, and yes, Christ--though I tend to take those lessons as more about godhood in general, due to my own leanings.

The other part of his site is the comments.

Now, I have never commented on Slacktivist. I am a long time lurker. Each entry gets from 200-1000 comments and more, and it is one of the most inclusive, intelligent, awesome, erudite, funny, and engaged communities I have ever encountered online. Fred's posts are highlights of my week, but only partly because of Fred. Hapax, Kit Whitfield, Madgastronomer (who left the site previous to this, much to my sadness), mmy, Lonespark and the other regulars there feel like friends, even though I've never talked to them at all. I can't wait to read what they'll say. 

And last week, Fred moved his blog over to a site called Patheos, a religious portal that claims it respects all faiths and has room for all opinions. It isn't and it doesn't--it is primarily frequented by and clearly intended for evangelical Christians and many homophobic slurs, anti-semitic articles, and pro-Jack Chick screeds, comments, and administrators immediately surfaced. Comment threading, moderators, site registration, and sorting by "like" buttons were all introduced to a community that had never had them, that self-policed and self-organized much in the way the Making Light community does.

Right now, it's looking like there's a very real chance that by changing the service provider and structure of his site, Fred may have killed his own community dead. People are leaving in droves, trying to find other places to congregate together. I left my first comment. It's so sad I can hardly bear it. So far Fred has only commented on the site design changes, but everyone is still waiting to hear what the hell is going on with having a liberal-leaning, inclusive, self-organizing community dumped into an evangelical portal that has shown it is interested only in the pageviews such a community generates, while being openly hostile to them as people.

Many are pointing out that the commentariat, much as it was a part of the value of the site, never owned Slacktivist, and has no right to have a say in how it's run. That's true to an extent--but an essay-centric blog without comments falls in the wood and makes no sound, and people have put years of work and words into the space they had at that blog. In some sense it belonged to them, too. This blog is no Slacktivist, but in considering my stance on LJ this kind of thing sticks out in my mind--a simple design change can implode a community, can stifle it instantly. And this space is not, and never has been, mine alone. Fred Clark has some hard choices ahead of him, but I really wonder what he can do to retain the community as it was, beyond retconning the whole thing back to Typepad and pretending it never happened, which he probably contractually cannot do.

At the same time, my little island is embroiled in its own site design controversy--that of secession from the city of Portland. I know I've never mentioned it before but I tell you what, it's all people are talking about here. The upshot is--our property taxes are very high, higher than most of the city, yet we get subpar services, very little fire protection, no protection at all from an increasingly predatory ferry company, and little voice in local politics. Secession has long been proposed as a solution, and it's getting seriously heated up in here.

See, there was a vote on this right before we moved here. And since we moved, I've heard that during that vote, Peaks voted definitively for secession, and was denied by the Portland City Council. Through the island listserv (we have flame wars too!) it's come out that this simply didn't happen, it was a vote to continue looking into the process, and even that barely passed. The fact is that our taxes wouldn't go down if we seceeded--we'd have to buy all our infrastructure, our water pipes and electric lines and all of that from the city of Portland, who would be disinclined to give us a good price, on a ten-year plan. We'd have to fund our school ourselves--and many of the residents here (who are jerks, frankly) think there shouldn't be a school at all. We'd have to have a mayor and city council when as it stands we can't get anyone to care enough to serve on the island council as it exists now. It's a terrible idea.

So naturally, a bunch of people have tried to end run around the islanders who are against it and get some kind of writ of secession approved in Augusta, whose provisions we would not see until we were simply given the right to approve or deny what other people negotiated without our knowledge. OMGWTF. On top of that, very simply, Patheos the pro-secessionist are being a bag of dicks on the listserv, engaging in some hilarious troll tactics, Tea Party dogwhistling about hating the government, and condescending rhetoric, and I went from being all "Hell, secede if you want" to being strongly against it. No one knows what's going to happen. It's likely that if the trolls have their way Peaks will lose massive amounts of government funding, while not getting better services or lower taxes, and will be at the mercy of the guys with free time and an ax to grind about how the rest of us should live.

What these fights are both about is: who decides what a community is? What it looks like? Who sets the rules? Where are we going as a group? Do we go together or do we fracture?

I think all communities have these moments. Some evolve; some wither. I hope both Slacktivist and Peaks Island choose to maintain what is good and has always been good about them in the face of change of dubious value. But of course some change is good--if Fred Clark had moved to a site with less obvious issues, I don't think there would have been quite the uproar. If not for the Augusta end-run around our voting rights, I don't think people would be as angry here. Process matters. Design matters. Small things have huge effects on a community, which is always a moving target, a breathing, organic thing.

This community has grown hugely in recent years and even months. It is a place where I want people to feel safe. Where I want them to talk and leave long comments and go off on tangents and feel free to do so. I can only dream of hosting as gorgeous a cyber-table as Fred Clark has, but I do dream of it. Do I stay here at LJ, which has given me so much love and friendship and laughter and insight? Or do I secede, move onto my own site, (a major redesign is in the works either way), because I am simply no longer getting basic services from the net-town where I've been living since 2003? How would that effect the community of robust commenting and conversation I have here? What would be lost? To thread comments or not to thread comments? Is it even my decision alone to make?

On the other hand, I believe what's best for Slacktivist and Peaks is to let things go on as they have been. So maybe I should take my own advice.

I'm watching the outcome of both debates with intense interest. Not just for myself but for the communities of which I am a member (albeit a quiet one). It hurts my heart to see these islands of discourse and camaraderie disintegrating. Hell, it hurts my heart to see my friends leaving LJ. We all want to stay together even after high school in the places we've found where we're valued and where we learn and grow online. It's shocking how much simple changes in format and policy can create and destroy the cultures of a site. It's disconcerting, yet fascinating, to see people taking apart their assumptions about who owns the space, who can decide what is done with it. After all, we LJ users, who create the content here and thus Livejournal as a viable entity, have never had any say in who the site gets sold to, or what they do with it. Ditto YouTube users before the Google sale, columnists at HuffPo, etc. There are no easy answers anymore, if there ever were.

Quo vadimus? Where are we going? Into the unknown, that's the only sure thing.


I met my husband, here, too. I heard someone refer to it as the heat-death of LJ and it feels like that. I almost want to cry--this place has meant so much to me. It's saved me in very real ways. It's given me my life as I live it today. I don't want to leave.

But in addition to being unreliable as a site, most of my friends are leaving. I still get pretty robust comments, but it's not like it was even here. I want to stay as long as I can, but without notifications it's VERY hard to follow conversations here when the comments get into 100 and up.

I don't want to be the last one standing when the lights go out. I bailed on Diaryland to come to LJ, after all. But still, it's not empty yet by a long shot.

But if I move to my own site, then I'm suddenly not part of a networked community like LJ. I'm on my own. And that's scary, and I don't want to lose, well, anyone.

(Deleted comment)
I had no idea what was going down at Slacktivist - I read the blog faithfully but only on Google Reader. I suspected there might be some drama when he quoted from a big list of constructive criticism he got from Making Light, but I figured it was drama of the sort that erupted when Gawker Media changed their site design - I'm reading through an aggregator, what's that got to do with me? This is definitely troublesome, and I hope he figures something out soon that works at least partially for everybody.

Sadly, I think some of that ML advice stems from a hatred of comment threading that was developed by the siterunners during Racefail. I've heard people say that without comment threading Racefailw ould never have happened. I disagree--threading is far easier for me to read, for example. But Slacktivites have made good points about why flat commenting works and I'm torn now.

The fact remains that Patheos is a pretty conservative and occasionally really ugly place, and it's incredibly upsetting that Fred chose to take his writing there. People are right to feel betrayed, when they've learned to trust someone writing kind and gentle philosophy joins up with folks who have proven less than remotely interested in much at all but mainline evangelical Christianity and all the hate and phobias that implies.

I've thought a lot lately about whether I want to keep writing here. I've seen a dramatic die off in terms of new posts per day on my friendslists and the frequency of posting in general. I estimate a quarter of my friendslist hasn't updated in ages. It feels lonely. I miss the community I felt before so strongly.

I miss it too, deeply. I don't know what to do to get it back or find it elsewhere--I fear this place was unique, and oddly enough, for some site design reasons. Threading, filters. Tumblr is full of like buttons and gifs. That's not what I miss about LJ.

I have had friends leave LJ. I did not follow them. See my commitment is to LJ. The people I follow are part of that commitment. If I were to commit to each and every one of them I would have too many commitments to follow. The portal of LJ is easier to commit to.

When people leave the group they leave the infrastructure it gives. They tend to leave hoping that they are stronger than the structure of the group they came from provided. Realistically most don't keep the same following. They gain some new people. But it is never the same. The internet is a big place. It is easy to get lost. Sometimes you need the city lights to be seen.

-S

I think that's very true, and I certainly feel safer here, ensconsed in the city. In both cases where a city is involved. ;)

But I do have enough of a following that I could go one without a parent site. The question is how much I really want to do that, and how long I can go on without doing it, given the direction LJ is going in.

I hear your lament for the loss of community here at LJ and elsewhere. I have been on LJ since 2003 and have noticed a sharp drop off in a feeling of community and loss of LJ friends.

I stick it out because I made a home here. I will wait for new neighbours and new connections. If the place becomes unlivable (as you suggest) due to lack of basic services, then I may consider leaving. I know a few of my friends have already decamped for dreamwidth (sp?) already and have an account there myself, but have done nothing with it.

Sorry to see you go if you do decide to take that route, I've only just discovered your journal.


I'm not going tomorrow or anything. As I said, I value my community here so much.

I'm unconvinced by Dreamwidth, which doesn't have close to the userbase LJ does.

On secession- is there hope for clue/helps from nearby Chebeague Island, who seceded from Cumberland a couple of years ago (their key issue was where the kids would go to school).

Funny thing about that. Chebeague Island voted for secession to the tune of 75% for. We are nowhere near that, and one of the big points of contention is whether we should require a supermajority to pass any secession motion. I think we should--50% + 1 should not be enough to drag the rest of us into such a disruptive new rule.

But the problem is we have no idea what's on the bill in Augusta. We literally aren't allowed to know. This is insulting and borderline-illegal, and we can't deal with issues without knowing what's being negotiated for us, without our knowledge or consent.

It's very sad to hear what happened to Slactivist. In your shoes I would have to wonder why he made that choice, really. Does it come down to "I want/need more exposure", and a larger pasture (so to speak) looks like a good idea?

My LJ, even when I was writing regularly, was not a popular place - but I have made several good friends and acquaintances here. Though I hardly write now (I mostly use it to record striking dreams, if I have the time to type them up when I wake in the mornings), I can't imagine leaving it entirely.

I hope there's some workable and positive solution on the matter of your Island, though.

People can be such dickbags.

He's posted about that--essentially they're paying him, and his IRL job is reducing his hours severely. He also felt he'd have more cred being part of a larger community.

I got on LJ in 02 and I don't plan on leaving-I like my nest here and it still meets far more of my needs than any other. That being said, if you decide to go, I will certainly keep up with you.

I may not have the volume of comments or posts I am used to, but I still feel very much like I am part of a community of friends here-so I treasure posts more.It's made me more active. Off into the unknown I guess we go...

I'm staying put. I have barely anyone following me, and I mainly use it to keep in touch with IRL friends any way. Someone's got to keep the homefires burning.

I cheat; I have my own blog that automatically crossposts to my LJ. That solution doesn't fix the issues one might have with LJ, and it splits my attention and in some ways my readership, but I felt it was a better bet than going solely one way or the other and possibly alienating the other half of my people. (This is especially important to me 'cause I don't have that many people. Every single person I know matters very much to me.)

I've been on LJ since... oh, 2003 or 2004. I don't want to leave. I have friends here who aren't anywhere else; some other friends left for Dreamwidth, and I email-subscribe to their blogs so I can keep up, but I don't like DW. It doesn't feel right to/for me. I didn't want to give up how easy LJ makes networking and connecting, so it was a pretty easy choice to link my public blog to my long-standing LJ and just keep the more personal/older stuff friendslocked and away from search engines and jackasses.

But I really do like having my blog off LJ, too. I get to play with it, customize it, create every inch of its look 'n feel. I would love to grow the kind of culture I've witnessed in places like here and Havi's blog. I'm glad to have my blog, and glad to keep LJ. It's a win-win for me.

I really hope you find a solution that works well for you. Being satisfied with your virtual home is so important, as are the people who help make it home.

I do feed my LJ through my main site and will keep doing so.

There are several different sections/portals at Patheos.com. The pagan portal is actually one of the most active portals on the site, and I write things for it rather regularly. There isn't always a lot of crossover in the site's content, though--yes, there are also very active evangelical portals, but they tend not to come to the pagan portal and cause any trouble...I have never been to the evangelical portal, and have only read articles on there in wider site-wide series (e.g. "The Future of Religion" series, and some of the smaller things like the "What do you REALLY believe?" series).

The problem is their info pages have some factually inaccurate stuff about paganism ("founded in 1964" conflates wicca and all pagans, obscures any longer history and subordinates it under the heading "new religions) and admins have already come into Fred's comments with hateful, homophobic speech. There is no way to register for the site and choose atheist or agnostic--only other. Even the proposed Humanist section will apparently say up top that humanism does not deny the supernatural or god--and Slacktivist has always been welcoming to atheists, one of the few places they could discuss theology without rancor and prejudice.

I think until the admin showed up and started being awful, people were willing to wait nervously. Now it's a disapora.

I'm a relatively new reader of both your fiction and this livejournal (this is my first comment--HI!--). I first started reading your lj when a couple of friends pointed to last years "30 days" posts. It struck a chord with me, because well I've had much the same experience, watching livejournal slow down day by day. Reading you also brought me to Slacktivist, which has really, just in the short time I've read it, been a really great experience. I'm sorry to hear about the issues they are having.

I think you were right about it when you did 30 days, which is the only people who are going to revitalize livejournal are us. I don't think the company's attempts to turn it into Facebook are going to help. In fact, that's why I'm on livejournal, because it isn't Facebook. Livejournal, as opposed to Facebook, is actually content based, even if much of that content is crap, or adolescent whining, or lolcats. It seems like the only way to keep going is to produce awesome content, try and perpetuate a sane and caring culture in comments, and hope that the powers that be don't mess it up.

On revitalization via awesome content:

I have an issue with my own blogging here. On DW-LJ I mostly do short stuff, highly biased towards motivating me to both write a lot and think hard about it as I go. On Blogger, it's more random and has all the dense essays in it. I could cross-post my main blog entries from blogger. Obviously, I think they're worth writing.

But... it's the community issue again. A fair number of the people in my LJ circle are fellow-veterans of another online community which ended up full of flame and toxin. On DW-LJ, I therefore tend to post a lot less on politics at all, and certainly with fewer pyrotechnics when I do. And there are differences in the way I tackle everything else, too: there really is a definite difference in feel between the two projects.

I'm a very small blogfish indeed, and certainly not the nucleus of any distinct community. Still and all, I have reservations about importing everything to DW-LJ. A rose in the wrong place is a weed, and I think the rule might apply to 'enriching' my journals with the kind of just-as-good stuff I don't put there already. Am I being oversensitive here? I've been thinking about this, but I just don't know.

I don't know that my comments are really important as I am not a part of your community - I read, but don't comment much. That said, I'm still going to put in my $0.02. :)

I love LJ, but it's not what it was. FB & Twitter have changed the way people discuss things online. People have jumped ship and even I have to remind myself to post here. But there are some things that are just too good to give up and leave altogether. I love the various privacy levels afforded to me while posting. I much, much prefer threaded comments. I love that I can have a lot of different people from different areas of interest for me - you included - that I wouldn't follow if I had to go to their website to find the information. Heck, I would never have found you if it weren't for LJ as your books are not the kind I usually read.

So, my personal preference is to have you stay here. I hope/think the comment thing is something fixable, if LJ will fix it.

But, I understand that you have your own life to live. You shouldn't be bound by what is best for me - and by extension whatever percentage of your regular readers share my opinion. What you do doesn't affect me in a large way. If I really still want to read your blog (and I do!) I can find ways to do it - RSS feed, bookmarking your site, etc.

*shrug* I'm not sure that was terribly helpful, but it's my reaction. Also, your post was incredibly timely for me because community and changes in community has been a huge issue for me lately. Thanks for bringing another aspect into view about which I need to think.

I was just amazed at how many places in my life are struggling with these issues right now. I appreciate your feedback, I really do--I do prefer threaded commenting myself, though how much of that is just "it's what I'm used to" I'm not sure. I don't use the filters much, but I'm comforted that they're there, if that makes sense?

I admit, it does amuse me a bit when I see people flounce and leave LJ to pursue places like Dreamwidth and their own personal spaces, but when they realize that while a small amount of people followed them, they lost the entirety of their community, they sort of crawl back to their LJ just to keep getting the comments.

I’ve been posting less and hardly commenting on anyone else's posts, just because I don’t have the time, but I do read. I don’t see myself leaving any time soon, but the desire of “Oh, something has happened and I must blog about it!” has been waning. It’s not that other websites like Tumblr or Twitter or Facebook have taken my interest. The interest itself isn’t there.

I find myself needing to remind my fingers that if they hate Gaga's video they should be typing at LJ about it and not on Twitter. Twitter is exponentially easier, and of course that's why more people like it.

Also, Twitter is the only microblogging service going at the moment. Facebook has statuses but they're so integrated with tweets it doesn't really matter. For right now, we're all in the same place, and that's a very powerful thing. There's nowhere else to go over there, where for long form blogging there are dozens of choices.

1) The Slacktivist/Fred/Patheos thing is unfortunate. Civility was never the nets strong suit except for smaller groups and even then things can get ugly. Now that cro-magnons have learned how to operate a computer the civility has gone even further down hill. I made the mistake of commenting somewhere two weeks ago and got my head handed to me through my ass. Little did I know I was a lone liberal amongst a den of conservative teabaggers. It got ugly. Almost got me swearing off of internet commenting forever. Almost.

2) Peaks. Yeah, secession will not work out the way folks would like it. I do wonder what Chebeague has become like since their secession. Google yields little about that. Hmmm. In my limited understanding of it (you've actually written the most cogent dissection of it I've read) it would only increase taxes to go independent because so many services which you mentioned would suddenly have to be provided by Peaks itself. And that the teabaggers are in on this discussion over there across the bay is not surprising. THeir arguments are all incredibly short-sided and seem to lack any insight into what to do after secession.

In both 1 & 2, we see an element of 'Bagger behavior that reminds me a lot of the tom the dancing bug comic from a while back.

3. LJ. Yeah, I felt bad when I switched to Wordpress running on my own site but LJ had become horridly unreliable. I get fucking spam now! WTF? And my f-list is missing a ton of feeds. I'm not a blogger like you but I just wasn't getting the service that I had back in 2005 when I joined. And yeah, the Farmville clone just had me shaking my head; weird/bad move. It's been a fun community for me though not to the depth it has been for you. Were you to move you can always cross-post. But I know the management end of that is tough. I'm sorry it's such a hard decision for you. Let me know how I might be able to help if I can.

Yeah, the spam is getting out of control, too.

As far as Peaks--I don't know about Chebeague, but I know that taxes went up for a long time on Long Island. It will not in any way lower our taxes, but that seems to be the only concern of the secessionists. No one on this island is interested in running it--literally, they cannot even get anyone to run uncontested for the PIC. We cannot run this as a small town.

What is also not common knowledge is that Portland gets a lot of govt assistance because it's not a high income town. Peaks gets some of that. We'd get nothing if we seceded, because then we'd be considered a high income town due to all the summer people and retirees in their mansions. I cannot really express how screwed this place would be, and how good the secessionists are at hiding this information. Not two weeks ago I was pro-secession due to my general fuck the man demeanor. But these guys are actively obscuring the truth.

Weird thing is? Ask me who the anti-s's are and I can rattle off names. I have no idea who the pros are. They post to the listserv, but I know none of them by name or face. It creeps me out.

Fred mentioned money as the last reason for the move, and I deeply suspect it's a matter of "needs must when the devil drives"... he can't afford to shoulder Slacktivist on his own/to not monetize it, and so he's convinced himself that joining the community is going to be a Good Thing or allow him to do Good Things, with his rather characteristic charity of spirit sadly spreading a gloss over Patheos's faults.

I left him a comment offering to take care of private hosting and Wordpress installation for him, so he can get on BlogAds or something if he wants/needs to monetize it directly. I know he doesn't respond to comments and so he probably doesn't read every individual one, either... I'll try e-mailing him with the offer when I'm sure I'm not completely out of my mind there. But I don't think I am. I believe in Fred Clarke the way I believe in Aslan-Jesus and the way Bruce believed in Harvey. I can do what I do because in addition to the people I entertain who throw me a few coins, there are people out there who believe in me, and what goes around comes around.

I have room to be persuaded that my faith is misplaced, but for now I still believe in him and what he's doing.

I believe in Fred Clarke the way I believe in Aslan-Jesus and the way Bruce believed in Harvey.

Yes, this.

There were so many other ways he could have monetized the site--and other portals he could have joined, frankly. I know the squeeze--you know I do. But Patheos just seems like such a poor fit.